In Orhan Pamuk’s "Istanbul: Memories and the City" there is a passage
about childhood memories and the nature of the Turkish language:
"I feel compelled to add ‘or so I’ve been told’. In Turkish we have a
special tense that allows us to distinguish hearsay from what we have
seen with our own eyes; when we are relating dreams, fairy tales or
past events we could not have witnessed, we use this tense. It is a
useful distinction to make as we ‘remember’ our earliest life
experiences, our cradles, our baby carriages, our first steps, as
reported by our parents, stories to which we listen with the same rapt
attention we might pay to a brilliant tale that happened to concern
some other person."
A couple of questions: he means "aspect" not "tense," right? Also, can
someone explain why dreams are lumped into the "reported speech"
group?
Thanks,
Marc
Marc wrote:
> In Orhan Pamuk’s "Istanbul: Memories and the City" there is a passage
> about childhood memories and the nature of the Turkish language:
> "I feel compelled to add ‘or so I’ve been told’. In Turkish we have a
> special tense that allows us to distinguish hearsay from what we have
> seen with our own eyes; when we are relating dreams, fairy tales or
> past events we could not have witnessed, we use this tense. It is a
> useful distinction to make as we ‘remember’ our earliest life
> experiences, our cradles, our baby carriages, our first steps, as
> reported by our parents, stories to which we listen with the same rapt
> attention we might pay to a brilliant tale that happened to concern
> some other person."
> A couple of questions: he means "aspect" not "tense," right?
This sort of thing is usually classified under "mode" in the world’s
languages, not "tense" or "aspect". They are called "evidentials", and are
charactoristic of many languages, especially, it seems to me, in the
Americas.
Turkish is rather poor in this respect compared, for example, with Central
Pomo, which has the following verbal suffixes:
-?do, hearsay (like the Turkish one)
-?ma, "it’s general knowledge"
-ya, firsthand personal experience, usually visual
-nme:, ditto, auditory
-?ka, inference from its consequences
-la, "I know because I did it"
-wiya, "I know because it happened to me"
> Also, can
> someone explain why dreams are lumped into the "reported speech"
> group?
As a pure guess, because they’re communications from the supernatural world?
John.
> > In Orhan Pamuk’s "Istanbul: Memories and the City" there is a passage
> > about childhood memories and the nature of the Turkish language:
> > "I feel compelled to add ‘or so I’ve been told’. In Turkish we have a
> > special tense that allows us to distinguish hearsay from what we have
> > seen with our own eyes; when we are relating dreams, fairy tales or
> > past events we could not have witnessed, we use this tense. It is a
> > useful distinction to make as we ‘remember’ our earliest life
> > experiences, our cradles, our baby carriages, our first steps, as
> > reported by our parents, stories to which we listen with the same rapt
> > attention we might pay to a brilliant tale that happened to concern
> > some other person."
> > A couple of questions: he means "aspect" not "tense," right?
It’s always described as a tense in books on Turkish grammar. It’s
an alternative past tense ending, not a distinct suffix to indicate
dubiety.
gel-di he came
gel-mish he reportedly came
but also:
gel-mish-tir he came
where -tir is the third person singular suffix for "to be". It’s
a bit more formal than "geldi" and has no suggestion of dubiety
about it.
Anyone know how far back it goes? Do all Turkic languages have it?
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
Jack Campin:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>>> In Orhan Pamuk’s "Istanbul: Memories and the City" there is a
>>> passage about childhood memories and the nature of the Turkish
>>> language:
>>> "I feel compelled to add ‘or so I’ve been told’. In Turkish we have
>>> a special tense that allows us to distinguish hearsay from what we
>>> have seen with our own eyes; when we are relating dreams, fairy
>>> tales or past events we could not have witnessed, we use this
>>> tense. It is a useful distinction to make as we ‘remember’ our
>>> earliest life experiences, our cradles, our baby carriages, our
>>> first steps, as reported by our parents, stories to which we listen
>>> with the same rapt attention we might pay to a brilliant tale that
>>> happened to concern some other person."
>>> A couple of questions: he means "aspect" not "tense," right?
> It’s always described as a tense in books on Turkish grammar. It’s
> an alternative past tense ending, not a distinct suffix to indicate
> dubiety.
> gel-di he came
> gel-mish he reportedly came
> but also:
> gel-mish-tir he came
> where -tir is the third person singular suffix for "to be". It’s
> a bit more formal than "geldi" and has no suggestion of dubiety
> about it.
(I was writing this as an answer to John, but it seems to fit better here:)
I don’t know much about Turkish, but … If there’s a clitic for hearsay
that originally was a "weasel word" of the type "reportedly", the
original criterion would have been [+reported], and the inclusion of
dreams would seem to require an esoteric explanation. If it’s the other
way around and there’s a clitic for known fact that originally was an
emphasiser of the type "really", which at some stage became obligatory
and unmarked, the original criterion would have been [+known fact], and
the hearsay mode would simply be what’s left of the old unmarked mode.
–
Trond Engen
"Trond Engen"
>> It’s always described as a tense in books on Turkish grammar. It’s
>> an alternative past tense ending, not a distinct suffix to indicate
>> dubiety.
>> gel-di he came
>> gel-mish he reportedly came
FWIW French conditional mode can be used in that sense.
[....]
> I don’t know much about Turkish, but … If there’s a clitic for hearsay
> that originally was a "weasel word" of the type "reportedly", the original
> criterion would have been [+reported], and the inclusion of dreams would
> seem to require an esoteric explanation. If it’s the other way around and
> there’s a clitic for known fact that originally was an emphasiser of the
> type "really", which at some stage became obligatory and unmarked, the
> original criterion would have been [+known fact], and the hearsay mode
> would simply be what’s left of the old unmarked mode.
Or, more simply, "reportedly" and "dreams" have in common that they are not
factual.
In sci.lang Jack Campin – bogus address <bo…@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in <bogus-C84431.09161802042…@news.albasani.net>:
:> > In Orhan Pamuk’s "Istanbul: Memories and the City" there is a passage
:> > about childhood memories and the nature of the Turkish language:
:> >
:> > "I feel compelled to add ‘or so I’ve been told’. In Turkish we have a
:> > special tense that allows us to distinguish hearsay from what we have
:> > seen with our own eyes; when we are relating dreams, fairy tales or
:> > past events we could not have witnessed, we use this tense. It is a
:> > useful distinction to make as we ‘remember’ our earliest life
:> > experiences, our cradles, our baby carriages, our first steps, as
:> > reported by our parents, stories to which we listen with the same rapt
:> > attention we might pay to a brilliant tale that happened to concern
:> > some other person."
:> >
:> > A couple of questions: he means "aspect" not "tense," right?
: It’s always described as a tense in books on Turkish grammar. It’s
: an alternative past tense ending, not a distinct suffix to indicate
: dubiety.
: gel-di he came
: gel-mish he reportedly came
: but also:
: gel-mish-tir he came
: where -tir is the third person singular suffix for "to be". It’s
: a bit more formal than "geldi" and has no suggestion of dubiety
: about it.
: Anyone know how far back it goes? Do all Turkic languages have it?
IIRC it goes as far as early middle turkic (11th century) and perhaps in
old turkic as well.
it’s found in many turkic languages, and those that do not have it have
some other participle suffix (in gelmi*sh*tir it acts as participle) with
similar usages.
: ==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
: Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
: CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts