Alwyn Thomas wrote:
>At the beginning of a word you have "v" in Dutch where you have "f" in
>German or English. e.g. Du. voet, Eng. foot, Ger. Fuss.
At the moment there is a strong tension to devoice the voiced fricatives,
with the labio-dentals (v) in front. In other words: the v’v’ is becoming
a ‘f’ in Dutch.
A collegue here at the university of Nijmegen just finished writing his
dissertation about this. He used real-time data (yes yes, he used
radio-broadcast spech as data, from 1950 untill now). His name is Hans
van de Velde.
Michael Cysouw
Bultaco motorcycles high-speed legends of racing championships. .
In article <3083CC50.6…@vms.uci.kun.nl>
roos scharten <rschar…@vms.uci.kun.nl> writes:
>Alwyn Thomas wrote:
>>At the beginning of a word you have "v" in Dutch where you have "f" in
>>German or English. e.g. Du. voet, Eng. foot, Ger. Fuss.
>At the moment there is a strong tension to devoice the voiced fricatives,
>with the labio-dentals (v) in front. In other words: the v’v’ is becoming
>a ‘f’ in Dutch.
>A collegue here at the university of Nijmegen just finished writing his
>dissertation about this. He used real-time data (yes yes, he used
>radio-broadcast spech as data, from 1950 untill now). His name is Hans
>van de Velde.
Is not this just the standard Amsterdam voice-change? For example, some
people from Amsterdam pronounce ‘zee’ as ‘see’ and ‘suiker’ as ‘zuiker’.
I can imagine something similar happening to f/v.
…………………………….. Lots of people talking ….
. Branko Collin . Very few of them know .
. . That the soul of a woman .
. // u249…@vm.uci.kun.nl . Was created below .
. \X/ bcol…@mpi.nl . .
…………………………… Led Zeppelin – Dazed and Confused ..
roos scharten <rschar…@vms.uci.kun.nl> wrote:
>At the moment there is a strong tension to devoice the voiced fricatives,
>with the labio-dentals (v) in front. In other words: the v’v’ is becoming
>a ‘f’ in Dutch.
>A collegue here at the university of Nijmegen just finished writing his
>dissertation about this. He used real-time data (yes yes, he used
>radio-broadcast spech as data, from 1950 untill now). His name is Hans
>van de Velde.
Is your colleague taking account of the region of origin of the speakers?
It is my impression that Dutch ‘f’ and ‘v’ become more similar the
further north you go.
Classical Dutch pronunciation requires that you pronounce "veertig" (40)
with an ‘f’ and ‘eenenveertig’ (41) with a ‘v’. It also requires that you
pronounce ‘zestig’ (60) and ‘eenenzestig’ (61) with an ‘s’. Many people
who say 41 with an ‘f’ sound also pronounce 60 and 61 with a ‘z’ sound,
perhaps as a form of overcompensation or speak-as-you-spell.
By the way, in my previous post I forgot to mention that where you have
‘f’ in German intervocalically, you have ‘v’ in Dutch, e.g. Ger. liefern,
Du. leveren, Ger. Kaefer, Du. kever.
Alwyn
In article <1743BDCE4S86.U249…@vm.uci.kun.nl>
U249…@vm.uci.kun.nl (Branko Collin) writes:
>In article <3083CC50.6…@vms.uci.kun.nl>
>roos scharten <rschar…@vms.uci.kun.nl> writes:
>>At the moment there is a strong tension to devoice the voiced fricatives,
>>with the labio-dentals (v) in front. In other words: the v’v’ is becoming
>>a ‘f’ in Dutch.
>>A collegue here at the university of Nijmegen just finished writing his
>>dissertation about this. He used real-time data (yes yes, he used
>>radio-broadcast spech as data, from 1950 untill now). His name is Hans
>>van de Velde.
>Is not this just the standard Amsterdam voice-change? For example, some
>people from Amsterdam pronounce ‘zee’ as ‘see’ and ‘suiker’ as ‘zuiker’.
>I can imagine something similar happening to f/v.
This change is really happening. I’ve seen research that pointed this
out before. You can hear it almost every day on television. The ‘Amsterdam
voice change’ you mention above is probable just hypercorrection, which
you can also hear on t.v. [Just watch 'Lingo'. It's awful.]
Rian
Rian van der Borgt, Nijmegen, Netherlands; e-mail: u249…@vm.uci.kun.nl
I wrote:
>A collegue here at the university of Nijmegen just finished writing his
>dissertation about this. He used real-time data (yes yes, he used
>radio-broadcast spech as data, from 1950 untill now). His name is Hans
>van de Velde.
Alwyn askes:
>Is your colleague taking account of the region of origin of the >speakers? It is my impression that Dutch ‘f’ and ‘v’ become more similar >the further north you go.
He is at the L-wave conference at the moment, so in a week he will be
). But I’ll try to say something about it, but don’t trust me
able to reply personal to all your questions about his work (he loves to
do that
too much!
He takes samples of radio-speech from reporters talking about the Royal
family or about football from two flemish groups of reporters: on the
dutch and on the Belgium radio (he comes from Belgium himself, working in
Holland). He just considers them to talk more or less a ‘standart’
variaty of Dutch cq. Flemish and does find some differences between the
two groups. I’m not sure about the results on this, but intuitively I
would agree with you about the fact that in Flemish the difference will
be more pronounced. Just wait, and he will tell you everything about it!
Michael Cysouw
I’ll just mention my own recollection, which I shared earlier with Daan
Sandee: it seemed to me that Dutch "v" sounded like /vf/, beginning
voiced and ending unvoiced, as well as being much more plosive than the
English "f" or German "f" or "v".
–
The 1990s: the Duh Decade.