In article <1994Nov6.141900.29…@ac.dal.ca>, nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
|> leh…@math.tamu.edu (Franz Lehner) writes:
|>
|> > would anyone give examples of the etymology of the equivalents of butterfly
|> > in different languages? I could make out 3 different origins in european
|> > languages. the first comes from the indogerman root *pal- and is present
|> > in latin papilio, french papillon, german Falter, ancient teutonic languages
|> > fifildri (old nordic), fifealde (anglosaxon), vivaltra (ancient german).
|>
[...]
|>
|> > A second family of words is present in english and german, where we have the
|> > superstitious idea that butterflies steal the cream of the milk, hence
|> > butterfly in english and Schmetterling in german (from slavonic smetana =
|> > cream).
|>
|> *Perhaps.* In relation to English I have more often heard the etymology
|> ascribed to the bright butter-yellow butterflies of the genus Colias — hence
|> ‘butter’-'fly.’
I once read somewhere that "butterfly" used to be "flutter-by" in English.
Can anyone confirm or deny that?
–
Ulrich Koch, stud. inform. Rose tint my world
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain
leh…@math.tamu.edu (Franz Lehner) writes:
> would anyone give examples of the etymology of the equivalents of butterfly
> in different languages? I could make out 3 different origins in european
> languages. the first comes from the indogerman root *pal- and is present
> in latin papilio, french papillon, german Falter, ancient teutonic languages
> fifildri (old nordic), fifealde (anglosaxon), vivaltra (ancient german).
What does this indo-german root *pal actually mean? The Italian ‘farfalla’
would seem to fall into this same camp.
> A second family of words is present in english and german, where we have the
> superstitious idea that butterflies steal the cream of the milk, hence
> butterfly in english and Schmetterling in german (from slavonic smetana =
> cream).
*Perhaps.* In relation to English I have more often heard the etymology
ascribed to the bright butter-yellow butterflies of the genus Colias — hence
‘butter’-'fly.’
In relation to German, what about the transative verb Schmettern (to dash
about)? Is it derivative from Schmetterling or vice versa?
> Finally in (ancient) greek the word employed by Aristotle is psyche which
> means soul, coming from the mythological idea that the souls of the deaths
> come back as butterflies. The same idea seems to be realised in russian
> babotchka (from baba = old woman) and doushitchka (from dusha = soul).
At first glace I have grave doubts as to the correctness of this derivation.
Despite the apparent similarity of ‘babotchka’ (butterfly) and ‘babushka’
(old woman) my instinct is that there is *no* common etymology. The ‘bab-’
syllable may be an instance of linguistic convergence. There are several
words with ‘bab-’ origins:
babka = a tall cylindrical cake
baba = a pile driver
babka = a pastern or knuckle-bone
baba (babka, babushka, etc.) = old woman (deriving from ‘bab-’ as a feminine
prefix)
babotchka = butterfly
I don’t believe these stem from a common origin.
Furthermore, the ‘-tchka’ portion of ‘babotchka’ is simply a generic diminutive
applied to thousands of Russian words. There is nothing to indicate that it
is related to ‘doushitchka’ any more than to ‘lasti-tchka’ (a term of
endearment), etc. One could as easily argue that ‘babotchka’ derives from ‘an
old woman’s eyeglasses’– ‘bab-’ (= old woman) ‘otchki’ (= eyeglasses {pl}).
;>)
The (modern) Greek word for butterfly is ‘petalouda’ deriving apparently from
‘peta-’ having the general sense of flying, dashing, darting (petayma,
petaxos, etc.) and blossom (to louloudi = flower or blossom); i.e. ‘dashing
from flower to flower’? Did Aristotle really refer to butterflies as ‘psyche’?
> Could anyone provide more examples, especially from non-european languages?
The Polish (and Czech) word for butterfly, ‘motyl’ appears to derive from neither of these traditions. What it does derive from, I haven’t a clue since
likely cognates (motyka = hoe; motylek = panties (!) & motylica = trematode)
bring nothing immediately to mind. :>)
Curiously in both Polish and in Greek the words used to signify butterfly,
also refer to a bow tie — not that odd, I guess, when one considers the
shape of both.
In Serbian the word for butterfly is ‘leptir’ sounding superficially similar
to the ‘scale’, ‘lepi-’, in ‘lepidoptera’, however, in this case it derives
from the Serbian word ‘lep’ meaning, beautiful, handsome, lovely, etc.
One might also make this assumption in Hungarian where the word for butterfly
is ‘lepke’, perilously close to the word ‘leptek’ meaning scale. Ah-ha, one
says! Oh no, one rejoinders. Unfortunately ‘leptek’ means scale as in a
thermometer scale. The word referring to a fishes’ or butterfly’s scale is
‘pikkely’ and ‘lep’ in Hungarian means ‘step’ as in a dance step. Hmm …
Does anyone know what the Spanish ‘mariposa’ derives from? The Bulgarian
‘peperuda’? Is there kanji character for the Japanese ‘chocho’ or is the
word written only in kana?
Cheers!
Christopher Majka
In article <1994Nov6.141900.29…@ac.dal.ca> nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
>leh…@math.tamu.edu (Franz Lehner) writes:
>> would anyone give examples of the etymology of the equivalents of
>> butterfly in different languages? [...]
What, back to butterflies? We had them here less than two months ago.
Btw, it is not the usual thing for two words from different languages
to be *equivalents* of one another.
>> A second family of words is present in english and german, where we
>> have the superstitious idea that butterflies steal the cream of the
>> milk, hence butterfly in english [...]
>*Perhaps.* In relation to English I have more often heard the
>etymology ascribed to the bright butter-yellow butterflies of the
>genus Colias — hence ‘butter’-'fly.’
What happened to the theory according to which _butterfly_ < *_flutterby_?
>> Finally in (ancient) greek the word employed by Aristotle is psyche which
>> means soul, coming from the mythological idea that the souls of the deaths
>> come back as butterflies. The same idea seems to be realised in russian
>> babotchka (from baba = old woman) and doushitchka (from dusha = soul).
Any good reason to write _tch_ instead of _ch_ and _ou_ instead of _u_,
other than desire to create confusion? Anyway, _dushichka_ is Bulgarian;
the Russian word is _dushechka_, but it has nothing to do with either
butterflies or the souls of the dead; its only meaning is `dearie’,
as a form of familiar address.
>At first glace I have grave doubts as to the correctness of this derivation.
>Despite the apparent similarity of ‘babotchka’ (butterfly) and ‘babushka’
>(old woman) my instinct is that there is *no* common etymology.
The Moscow University’s etymological dictionary disagrees with you.
It does derive _babochka_ `butterfly’ from _baba_ `old woman’, used
as a euphemism for `witch’, and says that behind this derivation lies
the belief that witches were in the habit of assuming the shapes of
animals, particularly unpleasant ones, such as butterflies.
>One could as easily argue that ‘babotchka’ derives from ‘an old woman’s
>eyeglasses’– ‘bab-’ (= old woman) ‘otchki’ (= eyeglasses {pl}).
Well, no. This is not how Russian word formation works.
>The Polish (and Czech) word for butterfly, ‘motyl’
Actually, it is _motyl_ in Polish and _moty’l_ in Czech. Recall that
_motyle"k_ is `moth’ in Russian.
>appears to derive from neither of these traditions.
Right. The etymological dictionary I referred to above is not sure
about the origin of _motyle"k_. One possibility is that it is derived
from the obsolete word _motyla_ or _motylo_ `dung’, and its original
meaning was `dung moth’ (whatever that is) or possibly `dung beetle’.
>One might also make this assumption in Hungarian where the word for butterfly
>is ‘lepke’, perilously close to the word ‘leptek’ meaning scale.
Actually, `scale’ is _le’pte’k_, not _leptek_, so _lepke_ isn’t that
perilously close to it.
>Does anyone know what the Spanish ‘mariposa’ derives from? The
>Bulgarian ‘peperuda’?
_Peperuda_ sounds like a fairly clear case of onomatopoeia.
>Is there kanji character for the Japanese ‘chocho’
That’s _cho=cho=_. (Damn. Why are some people so fond of
disregarding diacritics?)
>or is the word written only in kana?
There is a kanji for _cho=_, and it appears twice in _cho=cho=_.
The kanji is the same as the Chinese han4zi4 _die2_ `butterfly, moth’.
–
`That’s yer oan problem, Judas’, they telt him. `It’s nae concern tae us.’
Ivan A Derzhanski (i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk/chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) (The G– G–)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
In article <CywuF7….@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>,
Ivan A Derzhanski <i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Finally in (ancient) greek the word employed by Aristotle is psyche which
>>> means soul, coming from the mythological idea that the souls of the deaths
>>> come back as butterflies. The same idea seems to be realised in russian
>>> babotchka (from baba = old woman) and doushitchka (from dusha = soul).
>Any good reason to write _tch_ instead of _ch_ and _ou_ instead of _u_,
>other than desire to create confusion?
Mais monsieur Derjansky, c’est plus chic po-frantzouzky!
>The Moscow University’s etymological dictionary disagrees with you.
>It does derive _babochka_ `butterfly’ from _baba_ `old woman’, used
>as a euphemism for `witch’, and says that behind this derivation lies
>the belief that witches were in the habit of assuming the shapes of
>animals, particularly unpleasant ones, such as butterflies.
>>Does anyone know what the Spanish ‘mariposa’ derives from? The
>>Bulgarian ‘peperuda’?
>_Peperuda_ sounds like a fairly clear case of onomatopoeia.
Mariposa is the name Mari’a (Mari- in compunds, like Mari-Juana
whence marihuana), and the verb "posar(se)" `to set oneself, to perch’.
So "mariposa" is a babochka that (flutters and) perches…
Cf. also "mariquita" `ladybug’. Both terms are used to denote
homosexuals in popular speech.
–
Miguel Carrasquer ____________________ ~~~
Amsterdam [ ||]~
m…@inter.NL.net ce .sig n’est pas une .cig
In article <CyxAvy….@inter.NL.net> m…@inter.NL.net (Miguel Carrasquer) writes:
>In article <CywuF7….@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>, Ivan A Derzhanski <i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Any good reason to write _tch_ instead of _ch_ and _ou_ instead of _u_,
>>other than desire to create confusion?
>Mais monsieur Derjansky,
Argh, no! Not that. It’s bad enough that the Bulgarian authorities,
in their infinite stupidity, spelled my name in this monstrous way on
my passport. It serves me right, I reckon, for not romanising it for
them in my application, as I shall certainly do next time.
>c’est plus chic
Non. C’est plus sot.
It is stupid to romanise _ch_ as if it were _tsh_, or _c_ as if it
were _ts_ or _tz_, because these combinations do occur in Russian.
It is also stupid to write _ou_ for _u_, and presumably _oou_
for _ou_, given that _u_ is not needed for any other purpose.
>po-frantzouzky!
_-zsk-_, s’il vous plai^t. Ou bien _-zssk-_. For an even chiquer
outlook, try _frantzouzsqui_. (NB: the Russian word ends in _-i_,
not _-ij_, so the _-y_ in the gallicisation is not justified.)
–
`That’s yer oan problem, Judas’, they telt him. `It’s nae concern tae us.’
Ivan A Derzhanski (i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk/chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) (The G– G–)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
> What happened to the theory according to which _butterfly_ < *_flutterby_?
I don’t know. Whatever *did* happen to it …?
"There is a belief that the Brimstone (Gonepteryx rhamni) was once known as
the "butter-coloured fly" and that a shortened form of this name, "butterfly",
was thereafter adopted as the general English name for this whole group of insects."
— S. Beaufoy (1947) Butterfly Lives. Collins. London.
On the other hand the venerable OED says: "The reason of the name is unknown.
There is a Dutch synonym _botershijte_ which suggests that the insect was
so-called from the appearance of its excrement."
Hardly as romantic as ‘butter-fly’.
Barhardt’s Dictionary of Etymology records its development as:
Old English (circa AD 700): buturfliogae, buturfliogo, buterflege
(1250 AD): buterflige
(1325 AD): buterfleie
>>> The same idea seems to be realised in russian
>>> babotchka (from baba = old woman) and doushitchka (from dusha = soul).
> Any good reason to write _tch_ instead of _ch_ and _ou_ instead of _u_,
> other than desire to create confusion?
This you’ll have to take up with leh…@math.tamu.edu (Franz Lehner) who
wrote these words.
> Anyway, _dushichka_ is Bulgarian; the Russian word is _dushechka_, but it has
> nothing to do with either butterflies or the souls of the dead; its only
> meaning is `dearie’, as a form of familiar address.
In fact (Bulgarian) _dushka_ = _dushechka_ (Russian). The diminutive
_dushichka_ may also exist. Mr. Lehner, however, was undoubtedly confusing
_dusha_ (= soul) with _dushka_ (= dear). [N.B. 'dusha' is soul in Bulgarian as
well.]
>> Despite the apparent similarity of ‘babotchka’ (butterfly) and ‘babushka’
>> (old woman) my instinct is that there is *no* common etymology.
> The Moscow University’s etymological dictionary disagrees with you.
> It does derive _babochka_ `butterfly’ from _baba_ `old woman’, used
> as a euphemism for `witch’, and says that behind this derivation lies
> the belief that witches were in the habit of assuming the shapes of
> animals, particularly unpleasant ones, such as butterflies.
Ah, marvellous! I stand corrected. Why butterflies should be considered
an unplesant animal associated with witches is, however, beyond me.
Interestingly, however, this notion may be related to a Serbian belief that a
butterfly is the soul of a witch. If you find a sleeping witch, you should turn
her body face downwards, then the soul will be unable to re-enter it and the
witch will die. (Linda Sonntag. 1980. Butterflies. Putnam’s. N.Y.)
>> One could as easily argue that ‘babotchka’ derives from ‘an old woman’s
>> eyeglasses’– ‘bab-’ (= old woman) ‘otchki’ (= eyeglasses {pl}). ;>)
> Well, no. This is not how Russian word formation works.
For the humour impaired: please note the emoticon ;>) <— at the end.
> Actually, it is _motyl_ in Polish and _moty’l_ in Czech.
Yet again, I stand corrected.
> Recall that _motyle"k_ is `moth’ in Russian.
In fact _motyle"k_ refers to *both* moth *and* butterfly (Russian-English
Dictionary of A. I. Smirnitsky, 1948).
> The etymological dictionary I referred to above is not sure
> about the origin of _motyle"k_. One possibility is that it is derived
> from the obsolete word _motyla_ or _motylo_ `dung’, and its original
> meaning was `dung moth’ (whatever that is) or possibly `dung beetle’.
Dubious. There is no such thing as a ‘dung moth’ and I can’t imagine there
being an association between dung bettles (scarabaeoids) and butterflies.
In Ukrainian butterfly is _metelik_ and here perhaps is a clue to a derivation.
_Metelitsya_ means snowstorm or, alternatively, describes a rapid, lively dance. _Metkii_ means quick, dexterous, nimble. Could _metelik_/_motyle"k_/
_motyl_/_moty’l_ all derive from some sense of the quick, nimble and agile
flight of the butterfly?
>> One might also make this assumption in Hungarian where the word for
>> butterfly is ‘lepke’, perilously close to the word ‘leptek’ meaning scale.
> Actually, `scale’ is _le’pte’k_, not _leptek_, so _lepke_ isn’t that
> perilously close to it.
[Note: 'perilously' used here in an *ironic* sense.] Could _lepke_, as in the
Ukrainian case, also derive from some sense of motion? _Le’pe’s_ meaning
move, step or keep measure, and _le’pked_ to amble or trot?
>> Does anyone know what the Spanish ‘mariposa’ derives from? The Bulgarian
>> ‘peperuda’?
> _Peperuda_ sounds like a fairly clear case of onomatopoeia.
Onamatopeic of _what_? Butterflies are, by and large, silent creatures.
>> Is there kanji character for the Japanese ‘chocho’
> That’s _cho=cho=_. (Damn. Why are some people so fond of disregarding
> diacritics?)
We’re not all professional linguists familiar with the conventions of how diacritics are transposed to an ascii keyboard. Even linguists make mistakes
(such as positing the existance of ‘dung-moths’) when they stray from their
areas of expertise. :-)
> There is a kanji for _cho=_, and it appears twice in _cho=cho=_.
> The kanji is the same as the Chinese han4zi4 _die2_ `butterfly, moth’.
Much as I suspected.
For starting points for other etymological excursions you need go no further:
Finnish – _perhonen_ or _perho_
Yiddish – _dos flaterl_
Vietnamese – _con bu.o’.m_
Tibetan – _cemcema_
Mongolian – _erveekhii_ (e hard as in Russian ‘eto’; kh as in Scottish
’loch’)
Hausa (Nigeria) _malam-buda-mana-littafi_ (diacritics impossible to manage!)
Turkish – _kelebek_ (which, curiously, also refers to trematode flukes..)
Cheers!
Christopher Majka
In article <1994Nov9.002829.29…@ac.dal.ca> Christopher Majka,
nex…@ac.dal.ca writes:
> >> One might also make this assumption in Hungarian where the word for
> >> butterfly is ‘lepke’, perilously close to the word ‘leptek’ meaning
scale.
> > Actually, `scale’ is _le’pte’k_, not _leptek_, so _lepke_ isn’t that
> > perilously close to it.
> [Note: 'perilously' used here in an *ironic* sense.] Could _lepke_, as
in the
> Ukrainian case, also derive from some sense of motion?
> _Le’pe’s_ meaning move, step or keep measure, and _le’pked_ to amble or
trot?
But it is not Ukrainan
(it is Hungarian) And if you want to derive it
from
a verb I would suggest either _lebben_ or _lebeg_ .
We have more words for butterfly. The _lepke_ has a variation, _lepe_which
is oldfashioned, poetical (?) so it is not an every day used word.
The other two words which definitely have different root:
_pillango’_ - usually used in caso of colorful _lepke_
_pille_ - same as above in some dialects.
Tamas
nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
>> The etymological dictionary I referred to above is not sure
>> about the origin of _motyle"k_. One possibility is that it is derived
>> from the obsolete word _motyla_ or _motylo_ `dung’, and its original
>> meaning was `dung moth’ (whatever that is) or possibly `dung beetle’.
>Dubious. There is no such thing as a ‘dung moth’ and I can’t imagine there
>being an association between dung bettles (scarabaeoids) and butterflies.
Many butterflies (including, I believe, the monarch) feed on dung.
—
Joe Fineman j…@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
j…@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
> nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
>> Dubious. There is no such thing as a ‘dung moth’ and I can’t imagine there
>> being an association between dung beetles (scarabaeoids) and butterflies.
> Many butterflies (including, I believe, the monarch) feed on dung.
There exists *no* species of lepidopterans (butterflies or moths) whose larval
food consists of dung. Most feed on plants; a relatively small number are
predators of aphids or other small insects.The adult butterfly has a proboscis
through which it can suck up fluids and thus, if fact, is only able to ‘drink’ and not really ‘feed’ (if ‘feeding’ is understood to be ingesting solid food
while drinking is understood as ingesting liquids.)
Certain butterflies or moths are, as adults, attracted to excrement, rotting
fruit, urine, carrion, mud or other such odoriferous and/or unlikely
substances. Research has shown that principal function of this is to acquire
sodium which both males and females require for reproduction. Some species, in
some situations, also use this technique to acquire nitrogen or certain amino
acids.
Now, clearly I cannot speak for every language of every people everywhere in
the world, but in all the jurisdictions that I have been able to check, and in
all the languages I am familiar with and/or have access to, I have never
seen any lepidopteran called a ‘dung moth’. Moreover I would be most
surprised to encounter such a usage since, I underscore the point, there
are no butterflies or moths which actually feed on dung.
All this is in stark contrast to the ‘dung beetles’ or ‘dung rollers’
(Scarabaeoids) whose larvae actually *do* feed on dung.
Consequently while _motyla_ or _motylo_ (= dung) might be quite a probable
word to associate with certain beetles it is an entirely unlikely word
with butterflies. Thus my belief that _metelik_ (Ukrainian), _motyle"k_
(Russian), _motyl_ (Polish), _moty’l (Czech) originate from another source,
*possibly* associated with _metkii_ (= quick, dexterous, nimble).
The only association I am aware of between butterflies and excrement is in
the Dutch _botershijte_ (= ‘butter-shit’) referring to the appearance of the
aforementioned, rather than to a dietary proclivity.
Entomologically yours!
Christopher Majka
In article <1994Nov10.105243.29…@ac.dal.ca>,
Christopher Majka <nex…@ac.dal.ca> wrote:
>j…@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman) writes:
>There exists *no* species of lepidopterans (butterflies or moths) whose larval
>food consists of dung.
Do we _know_ about _all_ species of Leps? Easy answer –no.
>through which it can suck up fluids and thus, if fact, is only able to ‘drink’ and not really ‘feed’ (if ‘feeding’ is understood to be ingesting solid food
>while drinking is understood as ingesting liquids.)
This is probably a spurious condition to hold up for these purposes of
arguing whether or not a folk name could have arisen from observation
of Leps "doing something", not even necessarily "feeding" or
"drinking", on dung.
> I have never
>seen any lepidopteran called a ‘dung moth’. Moreover I would be most
>surprised to encounter such a usage since, I underscore the point, there
>are no butterflies or moths which actually feed on dung.
Again, the issue isn’t "dung-feeding" or "dung-drinking" moth, it’s dung moth.
Could just like to sit on dung, or "flutter by" dung ;>)
And, then there are the numerous Lep larvae which mimic dung. Now, I’m not
suggesting that the name butterfly might have come from some ancient
connection people made between Lep _larvae_ and their _adult_ forms; just
making the observation that Leps _do_ have their connections to dung.
BTW, there was quite a long discussion about "butterfly" etymology in the
sci.lang list some 9(?)-12(?) months ago. Anyone archive those messages?
Peter
Ulrich Koch (k…@informatik.uni-koblenz.de) wrote:
: I once read somewhere that "butterfly" used to be "flutter-by" in English.
This is a common urban legend. Other bogus etymologies are Port Out Starboard
Home and Fornication Under the Command of the King.
: Can anyone confirm or deny that?
I can deny it. Look up a dictionary that gives etymologies (or should that be
entomologies?). I have a book on butterflies that suggests that it’s because
of the colour of the Brimstone (Gonapteryx rhamni).
: —
: Ulrich Koch, stud. inform. Rose tint my world
: Keep me safe from my trouble and pain
–
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in) Email: don…@imst.bt.co.uk
"England’s not a bad country … it’s just a mean, cold, ugly, divided,
tired, clapped out, post-imperial, post-industrial slag-heap covered in
polystyrene hamburger cartons." — Margaret Drabble.
In article <1994Nov10.105243.29…@ac.dal.ca>,
Christopher Majka <nex…@ac.dal.ca> wrote:
>Consequently while _motyla_ or _motylo_ (= dung) might be quite a probable
>word to associate with certain beetles it is an entirely unlikely word
>with butterflies. Thus my belief that _metelik_ (Ukrainian), _motyle"k_
>(Russian), _motyl_ (Polish), _moty’l (Czech) originate from another source,
>*possibly* associated with _metkii_ (= quick, dexterous, nimble).
I haven’t got a Slavic etymological dictionary, but I would think
a connection with English "moth", Dutch "mot", "made" makes sense
(IE *matH/motH, cf. also Arm. mat’il "louse"). The dung word at first
sight seems to belong more with English mud, Dutch modder, Arm.
mut’ `dark’, Irish mothar `thick’ (IE *meut, *mutro)?
–
Miguel Carrasquer ____________________ ~~~
Amsterdam [ ||]~
m…@inter.NL.net ce .sig n’est pas une .cig
nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
>There exists *no* species of lepidopterans (butterflies or moths)
>whose larval food consists of dung. Most feed on plants; a relatively
>small number are predators of aphids or other small insects.The adult
>butterfly has a proboscis through which it can suck up fluids and
>thus, if fact, is only able to ‘drink’ and not really ‘feed’ (if
>’feeding’ is understood to be ingesting solid food while drinking is
>understood as ingesting liquids.)
>Certain butterflies or moths are, as adults, attracted to excrement,
>rotting fruit, urine, carrion, mud or other such odoriferous and/or
>unlikely substances. Research has shown that principal function of
>this is to acquire sodium which both males and females require for
>reproduction. Some species, in some situations, also use this
>technique to acquire nitrogen or certain amino acids.
Fair enough, but if people see butterflies hang around dung for
whatever reason, it is plausible that they might name them after it.
The habits of the adult are _more_ likely than those of the larva to
give rise to such a naming.
—
Joe Fineman j…@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
In article <1994Nov9.002829.29…@ac.dal.ca> nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
>i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>> Anyway, _dushichka_ is Bulgarian; the Russian word is _dushechka_,
>> but it has nothing to do with either butterflies or the souls of
>> the dead; its only meaning is `dearie’, as a form of familiar address.
>In fact (Bulgarian) _dushka_ = _dushechka_ (Russian).
Erm, _dushka_ is not Bulgarian either. I’ve only ever heard it in a
folk (?) song that doesn’t seem to make much sense; its refrain goes:
_Alena, galena, portokalena, / blaga dushka medena, shekerena._
scarlet cherished orange (ADJ) sweet soulie honey (ADJ) sugar (ADJ)
_Portokalena_ means `associated with (eg as sweet as) oranges (the fruit)’,
not `orange (in colour)’. I don’t know the rest of the song, so I can’t
say who or what these epithets refer to.
_Dushichka_ is the only diminutive of _dusha_ `soul’ actually used in
Bulgarian; Russian has _dushonka_, _dushka_, _dushen’ka_ and _dushechka_,
only the first of which actually means `soul’.
>Why butterflies should be considered an unplesant animal associated
>with witches is, however, beyond me.
Apparently any unpleasant animal could be associated with witches.
And winged caterpillars are hardly Nature’s greatest pride.
>Interestingly, however, this notion may be related to a Serbian
>belief that a butterfly is the soul of a witch.
It is reported that the Incas believed that a dead man’s soul may try
to return to the body in the shape of a (butter)fly, so whenever a criminal
was hanged (the most popular punishment in Inca law), a man was given
the chore to stand near the body (which was left hanging yet for a while
for better publicity) and chase away the insects, lest the soul return
and justice be undone. (Source: a silly novel I read once.)
>> Recall that _motyle"k_ is `moth’ in Russian.
>In fact _motyle"k_ refers to *both* moth *and* butterfly [...].
That’s right.
>> The etymological dictionary I referred to above is not sure
>> about the origin of _motyle"k_. One possibility is that it is derived
>> from the obsolete word _motyla_ or _motylo_ `dung’, and its original
>> meaning was `dung moth’ (whatever that is) or possibly `dung beetle’.
Correction: this hypothesis comes from Vasmer’s etymological dictionary.
The _m_ volume of the Moscow University’s dictionary isn’t available
in the library here.
>Dubious. There is no such thing as a ‘dung moth’
That’s my translation of the Russian _navoznyj motylek_. The word
used in Vasmer’s German original is _Mistfalter_. I couldn’t find it
in any German dictionary, though, so I don’t know what he had in mind.
>and I can’t imagine there being an association between dung bettles
>(scarabaeoids) and butterflies.
Stranger associations have proved relevant in etymology. The S-C _metilj_
(Bulgarian _metil_), which is a flat worm living in the liver of mammals
(whatever it is called in English), is also listed as a cognate of
_motylek_ and friends.
>_Metelitsya_
_metelica_
>means snowstorm or, alternatively, describes a rapid, lively dance.
The latter meaning is an extension of the former, which in turn is
derived from the verbal root _met-_ `sweep’. Vasmer derives the
obsolete word(s) for `dung’ from the same root (thus originally
`something swept away`, ‘rubbish, garbage’).
>_Metkii_ means quick, dexterous, nimble.
No, _metkij_ means `precise’. I’m pretty sure the cognate _metit’_ `aim’
is not related to _mesti_ `sweep’ and _metat’_ `throw’.
>Could _metelik_/_motyle"k_/_motyl_/_moty’l_ all derive from some
>sense of the quick, nimble and agile flight of the butterfly?
Very likely. Another etymological dictionary I came across brings up
the verbal root _mot-_ (_motat’_) `wag’. So everything points to the
vibrating movement of the wings or the circular paths characteristic
of the insect’s flight.
[re Hungarian]
>Could _lepke_, as in the Ukrainian case, also derive from some sense
>of motion? _Le’pe’s_ meaning move, step or keep measure,
`Keep measure’? _Le’pe’s_ is a noun, and it denotes a single step.
Anyway, I don’t think _lep(ke)_ can be related to _le’p_. There are
some cases in which _e’_ can become _e_ (or vice versa) in Hungarian,
but my intuitions are that this hasn’t happened here. If the word
were *_le’pke_, it might’ve been a different story.
[re Bulgarian]
>> _Peperuda_ sounds like a fairly clear case of onomatopoeia.
>Onamatopeic of _what_? Butterflies are, by and large, silent creatures.
Not when they pass near one’s ear. Or maybe we’re dealing with
synaesthesia — audible vibration symbolising visible vibration?
There’s also Hebrew _parpar_, Georgian _p’ep’ela_, …
>>> Is there kanji character for the Japanese ‘chocho’
>> That’s _cho=cho=_. (Damn. Why are some people so fond of disregarding
>> diacritics?)
>We’re not all professional linguists familiar with the conventions of
>how diacritics are transposed to an ascii keyboard.
Even if there were such conventions, familiarity with them would not
necessarily be correlated with linguisthood. There’s no obligation to
employ my method of encoding Czech or Hungarian acutes or Japanese macrons,
as long as one does *something* to indicate their presence, because
they do make a difference.
–
`That’s yer oan problem, Judas’, they telt him. `It’s nae concern tae us.’
Ivan A Derzhanski (i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk/chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) (The G– G–)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
I quote (sorry for my translation, I’ll try my best) from
G.Devoto, "Dizionario Etimologico":
"farfalla – is a term which comes from a complex overlay of words.
The first step is lat. _papilio,-onis_ plus _palpitare_ whith the
influence of the beat (of eyelash and wings), whence _*palpilla_.
The second step comes from _falena_ (gr. pha’laina), which meets
latin _farf&ra_ [& = a brevis], name of a long and flexible
plant, whence _*farf&la_. From _*farf&la_ and _*palpilla_ was born
_farfalla_. Latin _papilio_ is from the onomatopaeic [sp?] pattern
_p..l_, for which a correspondance in the germanic area is found."
Bye
) Paco
: >>Does anyone know what the Spanish ‘mariposa’ derives from? The
: Mariposa is the name Mari’a (Mari- in compunds, like Mari-Juana
: whence marihuana), and the verb "posar(se)" `to set oneself, to perch’.
: So "mariposa" is a babochka that (flutters and) perches…
: Cf. also "mariquita" `ladybug’. Both terms are used to denote
: homosexuals in popular speech.
Wanna laugh? Mariposa and Mariquita are also foods in spanish. Hehe
I think there was someone looking for triplets in english. Well, if
anyone is lookiing for them in spanish here are two. Mariquitas are thin
slices of fried plantains. (plantain chips). Mariposas are fried dough
(i think that i what one would call it) and it is served in chinese
restaurants. If anyone of you has gone, is going, or lives in Miami (FL,
not OH) then I assume that perhaps you have heard of the Chinese
Restaurant "Canton?" It is very popular. The most popular chinese
restaurant in Miami. Anyway i digress, THere they serve mariposas.
WHen i was young it really freaked me out ’cause i thought i was eating
butterflies. Yuck. But it’s like elephant ears at a fair. You’re not
really eating elephant ears.
: —
: Miguel Carrasquer ____________________ ~~~
: Amsterdam [ ||]~
: m…@inter.NL.net ce .sig n’est pas une .cig
cris
—
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
L’etat c’est moi! Je pisse sur les droites d’homme!
Meph let’s go kill some big FAT gophers!
Andie ****HUGS****
How are you? Cristobal Cardona
Ni hou ma? ccard…@mail.sas.upenn.edu
Comment ca va? "Mael, Altaic"
Comme stai?
Como estas?
Mit{ kuuluu?
Wie Geht?
An yon he se yoh?
Nasilsin?
Teah sagh tuku sed guille?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>> In fact (Bulgarian) _dushka_ = _dushechka_ (Russian).
> Erm, _dushka_ is not Bulgarian either. I’ve only ever heard it in a folk (?)
> song that doesn’t seem to make much sense; its refrain goes:
> _Alena, galena, portokalena, / blaga dushka medena, shekerena._
> scarlet cherished orange (ADJ) sweet soulie honey (ADJ) sugar (ADJ)
Lovely ditty, bard Derzhanski (I can almost hear the melody ringing in my
ears …), however, (Bulgarian) _dushka_ = _dushechka_ (Russian) *exactly*
(S. B. Bernshtein. 1975. Bolgarsko-Russkii’ Slovar’. Russkii’ Yazik. Moskva).
There is no mention of _dushichka_ at all.
> Apparently any unpleasant animal could be associated with witches.
> And winged caterpillars are hardly Nature’s greatest pride.
"Some to the sun their insect wings unfold,
Waft on the breeze, or sink in clouds of gold;
Transparent forms, too fine for mortal sight,
Their fluid bodies half dissolved in light."
— Alexander Pope
Beauty (like contacts lenses) methinks, is in the eye of the beholder.
> It is reported that the Incas believed that a dead man’s soul may try
> to return to the body in the shape of a (butter)fly, so whenever a criminal
> was hanged (the most popular punishment in Inca law), a man was given
> the chore to stand near the body (which was left hanging yet for a while
> for better publicity) and chase away the insects, lest the soul return
> and justice be undone. (Source: a silly novel I read once.)
This is an interesting account. Does anyone know if this is really based in
fact or is this simply ‘silly’ fiction?
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –
>> Dubious. There is no such thing as a ‘dung moth’
> That’s my translation of the Russian _navoznyj motylek_. The word
> used in Vasmer’s German original is _Mistfalter_. I couldn’t find it
> in any German dictionary, though, so I don’t know what he had in mind.
Well _Mist_ certainly means ‘dung’ and _Falter_ certainly refers to ‘butterfly’
or ‘moth’ however the compound _Mistfalter_ does not indeed appear as a useage
that I can find anywhere. Even Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm’s prodigious 44 volume
_Deutsches Worterbuch_ (Leipzig, 1954) makes no mention of it.
>> I can’t imagine there being an association between dung beetles
>> (scarabaeoids) and butterflies.
> Stranger associations have proved relevant in etymology. The S-C _metilj_
> (Bulgarian _metil_), which is a flat worm living in the liver of mammals
> (whatever it is called in English), is also listed as a cognate of
> _motylek_ and friends.
Liver fluke is what they are called in English [_motylica_ in Polish], or more precisely (in Latin) they are know as the Trematoda (there are are two orders
in this class: _Monogenea_ (the Monogenetic Trematodes) and _Digenea_ (the
Digenetic Trematodes)).
The association here is indeed, at first glance, a strange one.It is, however,
quite comprehensible when we reflect back on the morphology and behaviour of
trematodes. They are often large, flat, bilateraly symmetrical and ‘flap’ about
sluggishly when exposed giving the impression of a kind of obscene, fleshy
butterfly (particularly to the peasant mind, unschooled in the taxonomic nuances of the phylum Platyhelminthes).
As I pointed out in Message-ID: <1994Nov9.002829.29…@ac.dal.ca> this
association is also present in the Turkish _kelebek_ which refers to both
butterflies and to trematode flukes!
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –
>> [_Metelitsya_] means snowstorm or, alternatively, describes a rapid, lively
>> dance.
> The latter meaning is an extension of the former, which in turn is derived
> from the verbal root _met-_ `sweep’. Vasmer derives the obsolete word(s) for > `dung’ from the same root (thus originally `something swept away`, ‘rubbish,
> garbage’).
This is, indeed, interesting! See for instance the Polish _miotl’a_ and Russian
me"tla = broom.
>> _Metkii_ means quick, dextrous, nimble.
> No, _metkij_ means `precise’. I’m pretty sure the cognate _metit’_ `aim’
> is not related to _mesti_ `sweep’ and _metat’_ `throw’.
Ahh Tovarishch Derzhanski, your great-Russian chauvinism betrays you!
In *Ukrainian* (which is what I was referring to) _metkii_ means: quick,
dextrous, nimble, brisk, alert, clever alive, bold, vigilant, light-footed. [Andrusyshen, C. H. & J. N. Krett. 1957. Ukrainc'ko-Angliickii Slovnik.
U. of T. Press]. Tsk, tsk — the Don Cossaks will have your head for that one.
- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - –
[re Bulgarian]
>>> _Peperuda_ sounds like a fairly clear case of onomatopoeia.
>> Onamatopeic of _what_? Butterflies are, by and large, silent creatures.
> Not when they pass near one’s ear. Or maybe we’re dealing with synaesthesia
> — audible vibration symbolizing visible vibration?
Hmm .. sounds more like a case of *amnesia* [loss of memory due usually to
brain injury, shock, fatigue, repression, or illness] in Mr. Derzhanski’s brain to me. I’ll warrant that a butterfly would make some noise if it flew *in*
your ear, however (at least in my experience) this is most unusual happenstance. Too many *bats* in your belfry perhaps? ;-)
> There’s also Hebrew _parpar_, Georgian _p’ep’ela_, …
From my feeble Hebrew it transliterates more correctly as _parpor_. Be that as it may, whatever the Jews and the Georgians heard that the Bulgarians did as
well, it was unlikely the drone of butterfly wings. Here is an ideal spot to
posit a Khazar etymology methinks. ;>)
The Finnish word for butterfly is _perhonen_ or _perho_, a curiously similar
sounding word … Estonian anyone?
Some more butterfly names for enthusiastic entomological etymologists:
Innu (Eskimo) tarralikitak
Blackfoot Apanii
Zulu izimi- (or u- or ulu-) vemvane
Swahili Kipepeo [maybe from _ki_ (= it is) & _pepo_
(=disembodied spirit ?] – curiously similar to the
Georgian _p’ep’ela_.
Marano (Phillipines) Dangkaiaq
Cheers!
Christopher Majka
The toad beneath the harrow knows
Exactly where each tooth-point goes;
The butterfly upon the road
Preaches contentment to that toad.
— RUDYARD KIPLING; Pagett M.P.
Museum Informatics Project (mip-a…@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: Again, the issue isn’t "dung-feeding" or "dung-drinking" moth, it’s dung moth.
: Could just like to sit on dung, or "flutter by" dung ;>)
: And, then there are the numerous Lep larvae which mimic dung. Now, I’m not
: suggesting that the name butterfly might have come from some ancient
: connection people made between Lep _larvae_ and their _adult_ forms; just
: making the observation that Leps _do_ have their connections to dung.
The Chinese Character moth is thought to mimic bird dung. I’m afraid I
don’t know the Latin name, but it’s in the same species as the hook-tips
(drepanidae, I think). It’s mainly white with a grey patch in the centre
of the forewings.
: BTW, there was quite a long discussion about "butterfly" etymology in the
: sci.lang list some 9(?)-12(?) months ago. Anyone archive those messages?
: Peter
Afraid not, though I can remember that the folk etymology "flutterby"
was comprehensively debunked.
–
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in) Email: don…@imst.bt.co.uk
"England’s not a bad country … it’s just a mean, cold, ugly, divided,
tired, clapped out, post-imperial, post-industrial slag-heap covered in
polystyrene hamburger cartons." — Margaret Drabble.
|> What does this indo-german root *pal actually mean? The Italian ‘farfalla’
|> would seem to fall into this same camp.
An old german dictionary says that it means i.a. to oscillate and anything
alike, as butterflies do.
|> In relation to German, what about the transative verb Schmettern (to dash
|> about)? Is it derivative from Schmetterling or vice versa?
if I remember correctly, this word was originally employed to describe
the activity of making butter. So it derives directly from slavonic smetana.
|> > Finally in (ancient) greek the word employed by Aristotle is psyche which
|> > means soul, coming from the mythological idea that the souls of the deaths
|> > come back as butterflies. The same idea seems to be realised in russian
|> > babotchka (from baba = old woman) and doushitchka (from dusha = soul).
|>
|> At first glace I have grave doubts as to the correctness of this derivation.
|>
|> Despite the apparent similarity of ‘babotchka’ (butterfly) and ‘babushka’
|> (old woman) my instinct is that there is *no* common etymology. The ‘bab-’
|> syllable may be an instance of linguistic convergence. There are several
|> words with ‘bab-’ origins:
|>
|> babka = a tall cylindrical cake
|> baba = a pile driver
|> babka = a pastern or knuckle-bone
|> baba (babka, babushka, etc.) = old woman (deriving from ‘bab-’ as a feminine
|> prefix)
|> babotchka = butterfly
|>
|> I don’t believe these stem from a common origin.
again, I don’t have access to a modern dictionary, and my axplanation
may be wrong.
|> Furthermore, the ‘-tchka’ portion of ‘babotchka’ is simply a generic diminutive
|> applied to thousands of Russian words.
That’s why in my source babochka is related to baba and baba-yaga.
|> There is nothing to indicate that it
|> is related to ‘doushitchka’ any more than to ‘lasti-tchka’ (a term of
|> endearment), etc.
I did not claim this. My source mentions it to indicate that the
idea of souls coming back as butterflies is present in slavic mythology.
|> The (modern) Greek word for butterfly is ‘petalouda’ deriving apparently from
|> ‘peta-’ having the general sense of flying, dashing, darting (petayma,
|> petaxos, etc.) and blossom (to louloudi = flower or blossom); i.e. ‘dashing
|> from flower to flower’? Did Aristotle really refer to butterflies as
|> ‘psyche’?
Yes, I verified it. I also found in a modern Greek dictionary the word
chrysalis for butterfly, which derives from chrysos = gold and is also
employed in english for the pupae of butterflies and other insects.
|> > Could anyone provide more examples, especially from non-european languages?
|>
|> The Polish (and Czech) word for butterfly, ‘motyl’ appears to derive from neither of these traditions. What it does derive from, I haven’t a clue since
|> likely cognates (motyka = hoe; motylek = panties (!) & motylica = trematode)
|> bring nothing immediately to mind. :>)
It is also present in german Motte which means a special kind
of small butterflies whose larves love to eat old and new clothes,
whence a possible explanation indicated in my (old) russian dictionary
that it derives from the root *mat- = to munch.
|> Does anyone know what the Spanish ‘mariposa’ derives from? The Bulgarian
|> ‘peperuda’? Is there kanji character for the Japanese ‘chocho’ or is the
|> word written only in kana?
|>
the chinese word for it iss hu2die2, and someone posted that the japanese
kanji is the character die2 twice. die2 consists of chong2 which initially
meant worm but is now used for any kind of worms and insects. The second
part of the character is only phonetic (or maybe not?).
I also got some private responds about hebrew, where butterfly is parpar,
whose origin might be either p-rp-r meaning the same as *pal-
(coincidence ?) or as someone else pointed out it comes from
par which means bull. This reminds of the word for ladybug in hebrew,
also containing ‘cow’, as in the russian word for the same insect
bozh’ya korovka = god-cow. Does anyone know more details on this?
Cheers!
Franz Lehner
it was Ch. Majka’s post <1994Nov6.141900.29…@ac.dal.ca>.
|> |> Is there kanji character for the Japanese ‘chocho’ or is the
|> |> word written only in kana?
|> |>
|> the chinese word for it iss hu2die2, and someone posted that the japanese
|> kanji is the character die2 twice. die2 consists of chong2 which initially
|> meant worm but is now used for any kind of worms and insects. The second
|> part of the character is only phonetic (or maybe not?).
Wieger’s book about chinese characters explains the phonetic part of die2
as follows. On the top, there is the character shi4 = generation, which is
a contraction of three ‘ten’-s, indicating 30 years, on the bottom there is
a tree, so the whole character means leaf or sheet. Maybe there is a
connection to the form of the wings of the butterflies.
Franz Lehner
Just to add a couple of facts:
1. Motyl’ in modern Russian means a worm or a grub. Especially in
reference to fish bait..
2. Baba during most of the history of Russian language meant a
married peasant woman, not necessarily an old one. In modern
colloquial Russian baba in certain contexts can be applied to
any adult woman (I’m a native speaker, thus in the position to
say so 8^)).
Here you go…
IRL
Donald Fisk (don…@srd.bt.co.uk) wrote:
: The Chinese Character moth is thought to mimic bird dung. I’m afraid I
: don’t know the Latin name, but it’s in the same species as the hook-tips
^^^^^^^
That should read *family*, not species.
: (drepanidae, I think). It’s mainly white with a grey patch in the centre
: of the forewings.
: Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in) Email: don…@imst.bt.co.uk
–
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in) Email: don…@imst.bt.co.uk
"England’s not a bad country … it’s just a mean, cold, ugly, divided,
tired, clapped out, post-imperial, post-industrial slag-heap covered in
polystyrene hamburger cartons." — Margaret Drabble.
Museum Informatics Project (mip-a…@garnet.berkeley.edu) writes:
> Again, the issue isn’t "dung-feeding" or "dung-drinking" moth, it’s dung
> moth. Could just like to sit on dung, or "flutter by" dung ;>)
> And, then there are the numerous Lep larvae which mimic dung. Now, I’m not
> suggesting that the name butterfly might have come from some ancient
> connection people made between Lep _larvae_ and their _adult_ forms; just
> making the observation that Leps _do_ have their connections to dung.
No doubt. As I pointed out Oxford English Dictionary says (in reference to the
word ‘butterfly’): "The reason of the name is unknown. There is a Dutch synonym
_botershijte_ which suggests that the insect was so-called from the appearance
of its excrement."
Nevertheless, with the possible exception of this and the dubious term
_Mistfalter_ (= ‘dung-lepidopter’) from Vasmer’s etymological dictionary (which
no other German dictionary appears to list as ever having been a usage;
consequently he may have coined it himself for that single occasion) I can
find no other *etymological* (note _not_ *entomological*) association
between butterflies and dung. The linguistic associations people make in
relation to the naming of butterflies reflect notions such as:
i) movement, fluttering, activity, agility, etc.
ii) flowers, blossoms ..
iii) soul or disembodied spirit
iv) witches, witchcraft or folkloric associations
And not ‘dung’. Some butterflies may have some *entomological* connections
with dung, but few have *etymological* ones.
Cheers!
Christopher Majka
In article <1994Nov13.154648.29…@ac.dal.ca> nex…@ac.dal.ca (Christopher Majka) writes:
[replying to me]
>[...] however, (Bulgarian) _dushka_ = _dushechka_ (Russian) *exactly*
As I said, _dushka_ is hardly ever used in Bulgarian, though when it is,
it can, in fact, be translated into Russian by means of the rather more
common _dushechka_ (among other things). So I’d use `\subset’ instead
of your `= … *exactly*’.
>(S. B. Bernshtein. 1975. Bolgarsko-Russkii’ Slovar’. Russkii’ Yazik. Moskva).
>There is no mention of _dushichka_ at all.
I’m not surprised. Dictionaries don’t usually list diminutives formed
in productive ways.
>See for instance the Polish _miotl’a_ and Russian me"tla = broom.
That’s _metla_ (stressed on the ending), not _me"tla_. (Minor point.)
>>> _Metkii_ means quick, dextrous, nimble.
>> No, _metkij_ means `precise’. I’m pretty sure the cognate _metit’_ `aim’
>> is not related to _mesti_ `sweep’ and _metat’_ `throw’.
>Ahh Tovarishch Derzhanski, your great-Russian chauvinism betrays you!
Yes, I somehow disregarded the fact that Gromadjanyn Majka had
switched to discussing Wee Russian data. Your _metelyk_ was properly
labelled as Ukrainian, but I didn’t realise that the same applied to
_metelycja_ and _metkyj_.
>Tsk, tsk — the Don Cossaks will have your head for that one.
Since I’d rather keep my head yet for a while, I thought I had to make
up for the omission, so I went and checked the _Etymologichnyj slovnyk
ukrajinskoji movy u semy tomax_ (Kyjiv, 1982-). (Our library only has
the first three volumes, but fortunately that includes the _m_-words.)
It sides with Vasmer, that is, it derives _metelyk_ from Proto-Slavic
_motylI_, _metylI_ `beetle, butterfly dwelling in filth, dung’ (_zhuk,
metelyk, shto zavodyt’sja u brudi, gnoju_), and then goes on to say:
_v kinci praslov`janskogo periodu nazva metelyka bula vtorynno
zblyzhena z dijeslovamy _metati sE_ "metatysja", _motati sE_
"motatysja" (za xarakterom litannja); bezposerednje vyvedennja
psl. _metelI_ (_motylI_) "metelyk" vid _metati_ (_motati_) mensh
obgruntovane._
`at the end of the Proto-Slavic period the name of the butterfly has
undergone secondary association with the verbs _metati sE_ `rush
about’, _motati sE_ `reel’ (because of the character of its flight);
the immediate derivation of the Proto-Slavic _metelI_ (_motylI_)
`butterfly’ from _metati_ (_motati_) is less justified.’
Does that settle the matter between the patriotic Xoxly and me?
>> There’s also Hebrew _parpar_, Georgian _p’ep’ela_, …
>From my feeble Hebrew it transliterates more correctly as _parpor_.
It is transcribed _parpar_ in the two dictionaries I consulted
(thus more accurately _parpAr_, given the way it’s actually written).
>The Finnish word for butterfly is _perhonen_ or _perho_, a curiously similar
>sounding word … Estonian anyone?
_liblikas_. The _libli-_ part sounds rather butterflyish, doesn’t it?
–
`That’s yer oan problem, Judas’, they telt him. `It’s nae concern tae us.’
Ivan A Derzhanski (i…@cogsci.ed.ac.uk/chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) (The G– G–)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House E113, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Pk Rd, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
In article <Cz0vou….@world.std.com>,
>>Dubious. There is no such thing as a ‘dung moth’ and I can’t imagine there
>>being an association between dung bettles (scarabaeoids) and butterflies.
>Many butterflies (including, I believe, the monarch) feed on dung.
Not that *I* know of. And, being a biologist, I think I would know.
As far as I know, all *adult* butterflies drink nectar, if
they feed at all.
The larvae, that is caterpillars, mostly eat leaves. This
is *certainly* true of the monarch caterpillar, which feeds
specificaly on milkweed leaves – which is what gives the adult
monarch its mildly toxic nature.
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May the peace of God be with you.