Regarding English words creeping into Bahasa Malaysia when there are
already Malay words of the same meaning there: I’ve heard this kind of
thing is a natural process that you can’t do much about. [Personally,
I say "go with the flow" in such cases.] Perhaps some sci.lang folks
might want to comment.
—
Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM Naperville IL USA +1 708 979 6364
30
Nov
English synonyms creeping into Bahasa Malaysia
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<<<Regarding English words creeping into Bahasa Malaysia when there are
already Malay words of the same meaning there: I’ve heard this kind of
thing is a natural process that you can’t do much about. [Personally,
I say "go with the flow" in such cases.] Perhaps some sci.lang folks
might want to comment.
—
Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM Naperville IL USA +1 708 979 6364>>>>
What is the point of subtituting a Malay word with an English word if
the Malay word can still be used to carry the desired meaning?
What do you mean by "go with the flow".
How do you set the limit to just how much we should assimilate English
words into Bahasa?
Peace,
Shaheedah
Mohamad
Mohamed Azlee and Shaheedah — mh…@andrew.cmu.edu — write:
><<<Regarding English words creeping into Bahasa Malaysia when there are
>already Malay words of the same meaning there: I’ve heard this kind of
>thing is a natural process that you can’t do much about. [Personally,
>I say "go with the flow" in such cases.] Perhaps some sci.lang folks
>might want to comment.
>–
>Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM Naperville IL USA +1 708 979 6364>>>>
> What is the point of subtituting a Malay word with an English word if
> the Malay word can still be used to carry the desired meaning?
Maybe because all "living" languages, like Malay, are defined by
).
popular usage rather than by language experts, or teachers. Just like
the British are seeing more Americanisms creeping into use; and the French,
Anglicisms (despite all noble attempts to fend off the charge by F. Giacometti
in soc.culture.french
> What do you mean by "go with the flow".
Let words and phrases enter and leave the language as they please (like
). And not to waste time arguing with an American T.A. that
one can the Purdue Co-Rec Gymnasium if one has Purdue ID, or the correct
change
"There *is* such a word as ‘impunctuality’." (1)
> How do you set the limit to just how much we should assimilate English
> words into Bahasa?
Probably we can’t really set a hard limit. Possibly one way of "holding
up" is to get the authors, journalists and newscasters to realise that there
are perfectly good Bahasa words they can use. Whether or not they finally do
use them is, of course, something we can’t help. But they are the real
"shakers and movers" of our linguistic world.
Reg
(1) A true story
In article <DANJ1.91Mar10184…@cbnewse.ATT.COM> Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM writes:
>Regarding English words creeping into Bahasa Malaysia when there are
>already Malay words of the same meaning there: I’ve heard this kind of
>thing is a natural process that you can’t do much about. [Personally,
>I say "go with the flow" in such cases.] Perhaps some sci.lang folks
>might want to comment.
>–
I think Yiddish-speaking immigrants to the U.S.’s experiences are
relevant here. Mostly in New York City, these people more and more
"Yiddicized" English words, to the extent that, if you can read Hebrew
characters and understand Yiddish orthography, it’s almost possible to
read some sections of "Der Farvorts" (The Forward — a Yiddish newspaper
still in operation) without knowing any Yiddish.
I found this especially true in the ads, those sure measures of popular
usage. For example, the classifieds were titled (in Hebrew characters)
"Klassified Eds."
Tom
gel…@ucunix.san.uc.edu
t_gel…@usite-next.uchicago.edu
——————————————————————————
T. (Thomas) Geller Biases: Bisexual, feminist-supportive,
P.O. Box 20092 open-border, free-information civil
Cincinnati, Ohio 45220 libertarian Esperantist with explosives.
"polyglot" on IRC You’d _better_ be scared!
In article <DANJ1.91Mar10184…@cbnewse.ATT.COM> Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM writes:
>Regarding English words creeping into Bahasa Malaysia when there are
>already Malay words of the same meaning there: I’ve heard this kind of
>thing is a natural process that you can’t do much about.
It depends on what you mean by "natural". It depends on who that "you" is.
There is a lot of intervention being done on language, you know. Some
people can do a lot about it. Most people simply speak what is available.
>[Personally, I say "go with the flow" in such cases.]
It depends on where that "flow" comes from and what it symbolically
means for group identity.
Celso Alvarez
sp299…@violet.berkeley.edu
>>>>> On 11 Mar 91 17:55 GMT, mh…@andrew.cmu.edu (Mohamed Adzlee Harun) said:
Mohamed> What do you mean by "go with the flow". How do you set the
Mohamed> limit to just how much we should assimilate English words
Mohamed> into Bahasa?
"go with the flow": I meant "enforce no controls". I’d say just let
whatever happens happen…. I am in favor of promoting national
languages instead of state dialects, however. …and world languages
instead of national languages… [no special love of English implied,
though]
—
Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM Naperville IL USA +1 708 979 6364
In <1991Mar12.033245.13…@agate.berkeley.edu> sp299…@violet.berkeley.edu (Celso Alvarez) writes:
>In article <DANJ1.91Mar10184…@cbnewse.ATT.COM> Dan_Jacob…@ATT.COM writes:
>>Regarding English words creeping into Bahasa Malaysia when there are
>>already Malay words of the same meaning there: I’ve heard this kind of
>>thing is a natural process that you can’t do much about.
>It depends on what you mean by "natural". It depends on who that "you" is.
>There is a lot of intervention being done on language, you know. Some
>people can do a lot about it. Most people simply speak what is available.
>>[Personally, I say "go with the flow" in such cases.]
>It depends on where that "flow" comes from and what it symbolically
>means for group identity.
Personal experience injection: (Please pardon the "subjective" viewpoint.
The experience dates to 1973-1977 while I was 13-16. I am also not
much of a historian. Clearly the information is dated and is greatly
influenced by my "Western" culture orientation. "Maaf" to those who
find my perspective troublesome.)
While living in Indonesia, I learned (to a limited degree of fluency)
Bahasa Indonesia. When in Singapore, I could communicate with speakers
of Bahasa Malay (same as Bahasa Malaysia?). This supported the "fact"
that both languages are derived from a regional trade language. According
to the history I was told, Bahasa Indonesia was selected as the national
language for all of the Indonesian archipelago at (or near) the liberation
of the islands from the Japanese (c. 1945). The Japanese capture and
occupation of the Dutch East Indies had "liberated" the islands in turn
from the Dutch early into WW II. English is the official "second" language
of Indonesia. (According to what I was told, the selection of English as an
official second language took place later than 1945.)
Bahasa Indonesia was selected as a mechanism for uniting the otherwise
unrelated islands. (Some shared trade, otherwise major language, religious,
and cultural differences.) I recall there being at least two major languages
on the island of Java alone ("Javanese" and "Sundanese") and dozens of
dialects. The national language remains a major cultural unifying factor.
(There are a couple of national mottos which may enlighten the situation.
One translates "Unity through Diversity" the other is "Gotong-Royong" which
translates loosely in Americanese as "(There must be both) give and take."
The courage of the nation is great in the light of such difficulties.)
My understanding is that a dictionary of common usage was created and the
"in use" language was subsetted to remove as many "Dutchisms" as possible.
The language was then re-extended where necessary using Sanskrit derived
expressions (some of which were actually in use while we were there!)
Many of the "official" components of the language were at the time melting
away. One notable anomaly at the time was the use of the "anda" as an
intermediate formality form of second person singular/plural. All of the
advertisers tended to use that form instead of the extremely formal "saudara"
or the extremely informal "kamu". Needless to say, as a foreigner who
could read, I made the AWFUL mistake of trying to use "anda" in common
language. It made listeners very uncomfortable.
The technical institute in Bandung actually used English language
textbooks and classes were taught in English. The government seemed to
understand that doing technical work outside of the mainstream technical
language would create barriers to progress. Hence technical terms in the
language are permitted to be expressed in English.
Factors that seem to have influenced the language while we lived there:
A) Very few people could read. Result was that newspapers had little
effect on language changes.
B) EVERYONE had a radio. Result was that the national and local radio
stations could (and did) affect standardization and change of language.
Each "desa" also had at least one TV. In some areas a TV didn’t help.
At the time we left, there were a series of communications satellites
planned for Indonesia which would have widened further the "language"
perspective.
C) Public transportation was both necessary (due to low standard of
living) and available. The ready availability promoted end-to-end travel on
the island. Both adequate road and train transportation was available.
(Similar, I’ve heard, to that available in Mexico, in other words, something
to be experienced.) The result was that there was significant mixture of
ethnic groups and language groups in all areas. My impression of the
train system was that it was a vestige of the Dutch provided system. The
approach to maintenance seemed to be at best haphazard. This may have
become a limiting factor in end-to-end transportation on Java since then.
D) "Voluntary migration" to Sumatra. One of the initiatives to prevent the
further overpopulation of Java was to provide incentives to families to
"pioneer" to relatively uncrowded Sumatra. My impression was the success of
this strategy was limited, though the government continued the policy. This
seemed to assist the standardization of the language between at least those
two islands. Bali, as a prime tourist spot, was also fairly standardized.
Again, in closing, this is intended to provide a less theoretical, down to
earth view of what I undestood. Since I’m not a trained linguist, my
perceptions are at best limited and potentially faulty.
Glossary:
Maaf–Pardon me, excuse me.
If you do not think I am qualified to speak for my employer, it’s probably
because I ain’t, I can’t, I don’t, I won’t, and I don’wanna.
Greg Harvey Internet: lobster!lescsse!gwhar…@menudo.uh.edu
Lockheed (LESC), M/S A22 UUCP: lobster!lescsse!gwharvey
SSE System Project
Space Station Freedom
Houston, Texas 77058
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Lockheed (LESC), M/S A22 UUCP: lobster!lescsse!gwharvey
SSE System Project NASAmail: gwharvey/jsc/nasa
Space Station Freedom Internet: gwhar…@nasamail.nasa.gov
> According
> to the history I was told, Bahasa Indonesia was selected as the national
> language for all of the Indonesian archipelago at (or near) the liberation
> of the islands from the Japanese (c. 1945).
Bahasa Indonesia was selected as the national language in 1928, declared during
the Sumpah Pemuda (Youth Declaration). In that time, young nationalists declare
that we will have one nation, one country, and one language, Indonesia.
>The Japanese capture and
> occupation of the Dutch East Indies had "liberated" the islands in turn
> from the Dutch early into WW II. English is the official "second" language
> of Indonesia. (According to what I was told, the selection of English as an
> official second language took place later than 1945.)
I have never heard whether we have "second" official language. English, for
Indonesian, is just one of international languages, not official language.
(In fact, our president has never given speech in English, or communicate
with foreigner in English, even he knows English).
> Bahasa Indonesia was selected as a mechanism for uniting the otherwise
> unrelated islands. (Some shared trade, otherwise major language, religious,
> and cultural differences.) I recall there being at least two major languages
> on the island of Java alone ("Javanese" and "Sundanese") and dozens of
> dialects. The national language remains a major cultural unifying factor.
It was selected since it does not come from any "regional languages". I think
the purpose of this is to maintain unity (Imagine, if Javanese language was
chosen as national language, probably non-Javanese would not happy with that).
> (There are a couple of national mottos which may enlighten the situation.
> One translates "Unity through Diversity" the other is "Gotong-Royong" which
> translates loosely in Americanese as "(There must be both) give and take."
"Gotong-royong" translates better to "help each other" or "work together".
> My understanding is that a dictionary of common usage was created and the
> "in use" language was subsetted to remove as many "Dutchisms" as possible.
> The language was then re-extended where necessary using Sanskrit derived
> expressions (some of which were actually in use while we were there!)
> Many of the "official" components of the language were at the time melting
> away. One notable anomaly at the time was the use of the "anda" as an
> intermediate formality form of second person singular/plural. All of the
> advertisers tended to use that form instead of the extremely formal "saudara"
> or the extremely informal "kamu". Needless to say, as a foreigner who
> could read, I made the AWFUL mistake of trying to use "anda" in common
> language. It made listeners very uncomfortable.
Now "anda" is used to address second person even in common language. Is is
considered as more polite than "kamu" or "saudara". (Even sometimes people
don’t use "anda" to address someone lower in social status or younger,
they use "saudara" instead). "Saudara" is still used if you address second
person with his name (e.g. "Saudara Marsudi, apakah anda …….").
I think the use of "anda" is to replace the complicated addressing like
"suadara", "bapak", "ibu", "adik", "saudari", etc. with one common word, "anda".
> The technical institute in Bandung actually used English language
> textbooks and classes were taught in English. The government seemed to
> understand that doing technical work outside of the mainstream technical
> language would create barriers to progress. Hence technical terms in the
> language are permitted to be expressed in English.
I myself was graduated from Bandung Institute of Technology. When I was there
(in 1978-1983), we used English textbooks, but none the classes were taught
in Indonesian, except some special classes with foreign lecturers (I had
two classes taught in mixed Indonesian-French). We still use English technical
terms (or Indonesianized English terms, like "kapasitor" for capacitor) even
some "jobless scientists" are trying to translate all English terms to
Indonesian (for example, the one that I know, "effective" is translated
to "sangkil", which I believe not every Indonesian knows this).
> Factors that seem to have influenced the language while we lived there:
> A) Very few people could read. Result was that newspapers had little
> effect on language changes.
The situation now has changed. Newspapers have created a lot of new words
such that one of the staff here in my university who have learned Bahasa
Indonesia quite a while, still has difficulties in reading Indonesian
newspaper like Kompas or magazine like Tempo (well, if you don’t believe me,
try to read Tempo or Kompas by yourself and see if you could catch all
the words).
> B) EVERYONE had a radio. Result was that the national and local radio
> stations could (and did) affect standardization and change of language.
> Each "desa" also had at least one TV. In some areas a TV didn’t help.
> At the time we left, there were a series of communications satellites
> planned for Indonesia which would have widened further the "language"
> perspective.
All pressmen are the same, they create new strange words everyday.
> Maaf–Pardon me, excuse me.
Tidak apa-apa. Anda hebat sekali.
Marsudi Kisworo
School of Comp. Science, Curtin Univ., Western Australia
Inet : kisw…@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au