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Re: Fowler &c.

On 8/16/2010 11:15 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

- — -

> On Aug 16, 7:41 pm, Tak To<ta…@alum.mit.eduxx>  wrote:
>> On 8/16/2010 12:36 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Aug 16, 12:21 pm, "Brian M. Scott"<b.sc…@csuohio.edu>    wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:51:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>> <gramma…@verizon.net>    wrote in
>>>> <news:671a8625-96d7-47d7-a62e-ad40f5193cc3@m1g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>
>>>> in sci.lang,alt.usage.english:
>>>>> On Aug 15, 12:43 pm, "Brian M. Scott"<b.sc…@csuohio.edu>    wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:49:23 +1000, Peter Moylan:
>>>>> [restoring a few lines of malicious snippage, the effect of which was
>>>>> great distortion of what had preceded.

>>>> Bullshit.

>>> Maybe it’s time for you to retire from your university and enter
>>> politics. Your level of discourse is about equivalent to John
>>> Boehner’s.

>>>> [...]

>>>>>>> I’ve never accepted that alchemists were somehow different
>>>>>>> from chemists. They were, in my mind, early chemists, who
>>>>>>> were trying to work out what happened when you mixed
>>>>>>> substances in various ways. Not particularly successful
>>>>>>> chemists, it’s true, but that’s because they didn’t have
>>>>>>> any decent prior knowledge to build on.
>>>>>>> They were working before the modern understanding of the
>>>>>>> scientific method had been developed, but the same was
>>>>>>> true in all of the natural philosophy of the day.

>>>> [...]

>>> Again you deleted Peter’s sentence showing that you were not
>>> responding to what he wrote, but to what you wished he had written so
>>> that you could further your agenda. Just like Boehner.

>>>>>> Which is why none of them were scientists.
>>>>> So … there was no science until philosophers of science
>>>>> had defined what science was?

>>>> Read what I wrote, not what you maliciously(?) imagine that
>>>> I wrote.

>>> If what you wrote isn’t what you meant, then you should work on your
>>> English-writing skills.

>>>> It may be proto-science, and an important part of the
>>>> history of science, but it isn’t science if it doesn’t
>>>> employ the scientific method.  What philosophers of science
>>>> do is irrelevant.

>>> There was no such thing as "scientific method" until someone had a
>>> look at what scientists were doing and codified it.

>> But it does not mean that people before that have never practised
>> a methodology that was scientific by modern criteria.

> You do realize you’re supporting my point and refuting Brian’s?

I am not sure what your point was.  It is not clear whether you
thought that "scientific method" criteria can or cannot be
applied to the times before they were codified.

It is not clear what Brian’s stand on this is either.

- — -

>> (I think the word "method" is bit ambiguous; I assume that the
>> OP meant "methodology" rather than "technique".)

>>> Just as Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven didn’t know that they were
>>> writing in "sonata form" and adhering to a codified set of rules.

>> Bad analogy.  The criteria established by Popper et al are not
>> example-based.  (I assume that’s what people meant by "scientific
>> method" — what else is there?)

>>> You chose to ignore the note about Whewell and the word "scientist."

>>> Maybe you’re not aware that a lot of scientists these days — and
>>> especially crackpots — like to claim they are engaged in "paradigm
>>> shifting," thanks to Kuhn, even though "paradigm shifts" and
>>> "scientific revolutions" do not occur intentionally. Newton and the
>>> shoulders of giants and all that.

>> I see very few real scientists abusing Kuhn’s terminology.  It
>> is mostly the marketing type.

>>> Were Newton’s giants "scientists"? Did they practice "scientific
>>> method"?

>> There are too many people and too large a body of work to consider;
>> but I would say they were scientists and their methodologies were
>> scientific most of the times.

>> Note well that mathematics is not a science a la Popper; and
>> that Newton’s work on religion was not scientific (no falsifiable
>> propositions etc).

Tak

—————————————————————-+—–
Tak To                                            ta…@alum.mit.eduxx
——————————————————————–^^
  [taode takto 陶德]      NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

posted by admin in Uncategorized and have Comment (1)

Re: Fowler &c.

On 8/17/2010 9:13 PM, DKleinecke wrote:

- — -

> On Aug 17, 4:50 am, "Peter T. Daniels"<gramma…@verizon.net>  wrote:

>> No. You insisted that no one is a "scientist" or doing "science"
>> unless they follow "the scientific method."

> There is a concept called the scientific method/ But it seems to me
> that many people who are recognized as scientists by the general
> public do not practice it.

> By "The Scientific Method" I believe philosophers mean a mode of model-
> building that formulates a hypothesis and then tests it against all
> available evidence and rejects the hypothesis if any of the available
> evidence is impossible under the hypothesis and consequences. I am
> fairly sure nobody actually does this.

> Among people who try to follow the scientific method the usual problem
> is with "all the available evidence". There might not be any. That
> leads to the idea of experiments which are, by definition, attempts to
> provide evidence where none existed. Note that experiments are not
> part of the scientific method (as I have defined it).

Looking for evidence to support a hypothesis is not unscientific,
cherry-picking evidence is.  When pointed out, some cherry-pickers
would amend their hypothesis to include a mystery ingredient,
making it no longer falsifiable.

> The problem with deducing the consequences of a hypothesis is almost
> as difficult. Hardly anything obeys simple mathematical relationships
> that allow us to make reliable deductions.  Those cases where it is
> possible to take the position that the consequences can be deduced
> mathematically are the "hard" sciences.

I am not sure what "deducing the consequences of a hypothesis" mean.
Certainly a hypothesis that utilizes a numeric model tends to make
more precise predictions, the verification of which is thus more
clear cut.

> It seems to me that more often than not the scientific method is used
> backwards in hard science. Experiments are performed to collect
> evidence for hypotheses as yet unformulated and the hypothesis created
> to explain the evidence.  Nothing wrong with that – except it isn’t
> the scientific method.

I disagree.  See above.

> But outside the hard sciences the scientific method as defined here is
> worse than useless. Consider PIE. It is the result of several hundred
> (thousands?) of hypotheses all of which, so far as I know, leak. By
> leak I mean there are cases where what has happened does not represent
> the consequences of the hypotheses. What can we do?  We fall take on
> plausibility. And every different student of PIE, so far as I know,
> finds a different description the most plausible. We have to learn to
> live with ambiguity.

This is an entirely different area — that of model aesthetics.  I
use the word "aesthetics" to highlight the fact that Occam’s Razor
aside, this is essentially a subjective process.

> So far as I can tell defining "scientist" as one who practices "the
> scientific method" leads to the conclusion (following the scientific
> method) that there are no scientists.

I disagree.  See above.

> Evidence against that hypothesis
> would have to be displaying a scientist (under the definition adopted
> here – not just what they are called). I cannot see how to demonstrate
> that any candidate scientist is in fact a real scientist.

FWIW, the scientific method does not and cannot prove anything.  It can
only disproves (falsifies) hypothesis.

Tak

—————————————————————-+—–
Tak To                                            ta…@alum.mit.eduxx
——————————————————————–^^
  [taode takto 陶德]      NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

posted by admin in Uncategorized and have No Comments

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Car Talk: A Huge Bag of Crab

In _Car Talk_ #1033, at about 19m00s, the caller says someone gave her
"a bag of cra_"; she means "crab", but Tom & Ray both hear "crap" at
first, and that’s certainly what I heard.  

They ask for clarification and subsequently, either she pronounces it
more clearly or they and I are both primed to hear "crab"; that’s
definitely what I (think I) hear after it’s clarified.  Anyone else
care to listen and comment on this?

http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast.php?id=510208
http://www.cartalk.com/?ft=2&f=510208

(The automotive angle is that she forgets the bag in her car overnight
and it leaks and makes the carpets stink.  I’m not sure how long the
episodes remain available for download — maybe just two weeks.)


When Elaine turned 11, her mother sent her to train under
Donald Knuth in his mountain hideaway.         [XKCD 342]

posted by admin in Uncategorized and have Comments (8)

Re: Fowler &c.

- — -

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> DKleinecke <dkleine…@gmail.com> writes:

>> On Aug 17, 4:50 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma…@verizon.net> wrote:

>>> No. You insisted that no one is a "scientist" or doing "science"
>>> unless they follow "the scientific method."
>> There is a concept called the scientific method/ But it seems to me
>> that many people who are recognized as scientists by the general
>> public do not practice it.

>> By "The Scientific Method" I believe philosophers mean a mode of
>> model-building that formulates a hypothesis and then tests it
>> against all available evidence and rejects the hypothesis if any of
>> the available evidence is impossible under the hypothesis and
>> consequences. I am fairly sure nobody actually does this.

>> Among people who try to follow the scientific method the usual
>> problem is with "all the available evidence". There might not be
>> any. That leads to the idea of experiments which are, by definition,
>> attempts to provide evidence where none existed. Note that
>> experiments are not part of the scientific method (as I have defined
>> it).

> As you’ve defined it.  It seems a strange definition to me.  I learned
> the "scientific method" to be the notion of formulating a model that
> isn’t falsified by available evidence, coming up with an experiment
> which has the ability to distinguish your model from another
> (typically simpler) model that also isn’t falsified by available
> evidence, and confirming that the results of the experiment accord
> with your model’s prediction.  Or don’t, in which case, you discard or
> modify your model.

That’s a modern approach. If you go back a few hundred years, you get a
much simpler distinction:

- the "argument from authority": ask what the experts say;
– the "argument from evidence": check what the evidence says.

For a representative example, ask yourself whether a heavy weight falls
faster than a light weight. There was a time when the answer to this was
obvious: Aristotle said that heavier weights fell faster, so that’s the
end of the matter. The idea that one might do some experiments, and see
which weights fell faster, was foreign to the ideas of the time. It
could reasonably be said that what got Galileo into trouble was that he
dared to contradict Aristotle.

It’s clear, in hindsight, that the Church would always have supported
the argument from authority, because the strength of the Church derived
from the fact that everyone accepted its authority. Once you allow
people to look at evidence, you create the risk that they will disagree
with the Bible, or disagree with the Pope’s infallible pronouncements.

When we look at this from today’s perspective, we can see that the
Church of the time was pretty silly to insist – essentially on the
authority of Aristotle – that the Sun goes around the Earth. Look at
today’s creationists, though, and you see that we still have the same
situation: scientists believe in looking at the evidence, and
"faith-based" experts insist that evidence is a distraction that stops
people from seeing the Real Truth.


Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

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Why we have Gravity

Why we have Gravity

A correct theory of gravity will show us these four (4) things:
1. It will show us why gravity also acts like acceleration (principle
of equvalence).
2. It will show us the actual cause of gravity.
3. It will show us why gravitational force and inertial force are
equivalent.
4. It will show us the speed of gravitational attraction.

Newton said gravity was acting at a much faster speed than Einstein.
Which one of them is right?

http://www.amperefitz.com/why.we.have.gravity.htm
Click that link above if you like Science!

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Introduction to the study of language – Berthold Delbruck (1882)

Forwarded message from M. K.

Introduction to the study of language: Berthold Delbruck (1882)

Thursday, August 19, 2010

http://tinyurl.com/25oequy

End of forwarded message from M. K.

Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti

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